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#243423
Dreamstalker wrote:
LordVigo82 wrote:I don't think it was so much that he became that way, more likely it just wasn't as subtle and intelligently written in there for him as time went by.
That's what it seems like to me; as the show became more 'kid-friendly' (what, it wasn't before?) the humor got less subtle.

I showed 3 episodes of early RGB and 3 of later RGB to a friend's grandsons (4 and 6) and both of them preferred Music's Venkman and the earlier plots...the older boy said Music sounded "more fun".

Y'know, there was a scene in "Banshee Bake a Cherry Pie?" where Venkman has this line "a good imagination is a joy forever"...and has this subtly perverted look on his face. That scene is so classic in my mind not just because of the look on his face, but Music's delivery was just so perfect with it...it all worked so well together.

When Coulier tried doing lines like that....he came off like a rebel in Kindergarten class.....
#243428
I think that really it's a combination of the voice actor and the writing.

Yes, Music's delivery was perfect, but just taking the lines at face value, just reading the words to myself without Music's voice, the lines are still funny.

Not only do I dislike Coulier's take on Venkman, but the lines themselves are just dumb. I mean, if I had a friend who said those things in real life, he'd be that one friend in your group that no one really wants to be around and no one remembers how he got into your circle of friends in the first place.

And yes, every group of friends has that guy. If you think your group doesn't have that guy, then it's YOU.
#243430
kevinj319 wrote:I think that really it's a combination of the voice actor and the writing.

Yes, Music's delivery was perfect, but just taking the lines at face value, just reading the words to myself without Music's voice, the lines are still funny.

Not only do I dislike Coulier's take on Venkman, but the lines themselves are just dumb. I mean, if I had a friend who said those things in real life, he'd be that one friend in your group that no one really wants to be around and no one remembers how he got into your circle of friends in the first place.

And yes, every group of friends has that guy. If you think your group doesn't have that guy, then it's YOU.

very true; it seemed the later writing just worked better for Coulier regardless; I'm not saying that's necessarily a good thing.

I don' know if you've ever watched his stand-up comedy but.....I have to say it, I have no idea how this guy gets sold out shows. I mean...are people really that desperate for comedy so "clean" that it makes Raffi and Sesame Street look butch by comparison?
#243439
LordVigo82 wrote: I don' know if you've ever watched his stand-up comedy but.....I have to say it, I have no idea how this guy gets sold out shows. I mean...are people really that desperate for comedy so "clean" that it makes Raffi and Sesame Street look butch by comparison?
I think they're just excited to see "Uncle Joey."

Plus Alanis wrote that song about him, so he's got that going for him...
#243561
kevinj319 wrote:
LordVigo82 wrote: I don' know if you've ever watched his stand-up comedy but.....I have to say it, I have no idea how this guy gets sold out shows. I mean...are people really that desperate for comedy so "clean" that it makes Raffi and Sesame Street look butch by comparison?
I think they're just excited to see "Uncle Joey."

Plus Alanis wrote that song about him, so he's got that going for him...

Alanis is still relevant?
User avatar
By dfak2009
#296560
All i can say is RIP Lorenzo Music and F U Dave Coulier :P
It really does seem as soon as Dave Coulier took over from Music that the show slowly but surely went down hill!!
Volume 4 is so unbelievably horrific!!
Not one shot is fired from their proton packs, you dont see them out on calls, the whole show seem's to revolve around slimer, they get sucked through a ghost trap that teleports them back to 1959, how does that make sense??
I'd pull my hair out from just thinking about that episode alone if i already was'nt going bald :P
I'm gonna soldier on and watch the rest of volume 4 & 5 but from now on i'm gonna keep replaying volume 1-3

PS Lorenzo music was the best Venkman and Arsenio Hall best Winston IMO :D
#296670
kevinj319 wrote:
Plus Alanis wrote that song about him, so he's got that going for him...
LordVigo82 wrote: Alanis is still relevant?

Sarcasm!
#298041
Is there just a dislike of Coulier in terms of those he worked with? Is this why in the Character Special Feature he was the only voice actor that no one talked about or even mentioned? I haven't made it all the way to the extended interviews, but I did find it odd that all voice actors were discussed but him.

I prefer Music's Venkman. Sure he didn't sound like Bill Murray, but he had the character of Venkman down pat. The sarcasm, the flirting, he was the smart alec leader. When Coulier took over, Peter became a very watered down version. He became the comic relief with nothing to make him cool. I don't blame Coulier for this, because that is Dave (look at everything he's ever done). I blame the producers and Show runners.

You have to remember, Dave's doing a job just like Kath was. I think Buster Jones was the only one who no one hated because A, he sounds little like Arsenio ( a little) and 2) Arsenio wasn't pushed out like Music and Laura were.

But Kath and Dave's arrival was in the same time as the incomparable J. Michael left as show runner. The show became kid friendlier and they hired actor's that would fit that mold. I was watching one episode early in Dave's run and marveled at how Peter never once hit on the female in trouble. I think it was the "Let's free Stay Puft to help a kid's hospital" She was a nurse and Peter said nothing. That summed it up for me. Peter wasn't Peter anymore. When Kath came Janine lost everything that made her a great character. Nothing against Kath, she was hired to tone down Janine and she even admits she did what they told her to do. Kath didn't seem happy about it, but she has a mouth to feed.

As for Bill Murray being responsible for Lorenzo being tossed out, I always wonder if his comment to Ivan Reitman wasn't said as a joke. It seems Bill's humor to make a wry comment on something even if he likes it.

I blame the negative changes to Peter and Janine on the producers, they tossed out J. Michael (who they quickly realized they probably should have kept) because they simply didn't know what made the show as great as it was.


and now my fingers are cramping.
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#298052
fryguy81 wrote:Is there just a dislike of Coulier in terms of those he worked with? Is this why in the Character Special Feature he was the only voice actor that no one talked about or even mentioned? I haven't made it all the way to the extended interviews, but I did find it odd that all voice actors were discussed but him.

I prefer Music's Venkman. Sure he didn't sound like Bill Murray, but he had the character of Venkman down pat. The sarcasm, the flirting, he was the smart alec leader. When Coulier took over, Peter became a very watered down version. He became the comic relief with nothing to make him cool. I don't blame Coulier for this, because that is Dave (look at everything he's ever done). I blame the producers and Show runners.

You have to remember, Dave's doing a job just like Kath was. I think Buster Jones was the only one who no one hated because A, he sounds little like Arsenio ( a little) and 2) Arsenio wasn't pushed out like Music and Laura were.

But Kath and Dave's arrival was in the same time as the incomparable J. Michael left as show runner. The show became kid friendlier and they hired actor's that would fit that mold. I was watching one episode early in Dave's run and marveled at how Peter never once hit on the female in trouble. I think it was the "Let's free Stay Puft to help a kid's hospital" She was a nurse and Peter said nothing. That summed it up for me. Peter wasn't Peter anymore. When Kath came Janine lost everything that made her a great character. Nothing against Kath, she was hired to tone down Janine and she even admits she did what they told her to do. Kath didn't seem happy about it, but she has a mouth to feed.

As for Bill Murray being responsible for Lorenzo being tossed out, I always wonder if his comment to Ivan Reitman wasn't said as a joke. It seems Bill's humor to make a wry comment on something even if he likes it.

I blame the negative changes to Peter and Janine on the producers, they tossed out J. Michael (who they quickly realized they probably should have kept) because they simply didn't know what made the show as great as it was
I've got the timelife box set and im on volume 5 at the moment and what you've said has summed it up for me!!!
User avatar
By Fritz
#298365
brad84 wrote:What did Bill say to Ivan about Lorenzo? I never herd anything about that, just wondering what it was!
From an interview Niel Vitale had with Micheal C. Gross, the movie and RGB producer. It was formerly at ghostbustershq.com.
NV : From the Newsgroup: "Why wasn't Lorenzo Music used past the midpoint of the Real Ghostbusters?"

MG : Lorenzo Music. First off let me say he was a wonderful, smart. Talented, Funny man. When we started the show we couldn't use the original film actors... too expensive, conflicting and busy schedules, etc. So the voices had to reflect the CHARACTERS not the actors. In (Bill's) Venk's case it was difficult to get the voice to go with the writing... but he was great. Then mid-way through production Bill was having lunch with Ivan Reitman and said how much he liked the show and said "why doesn't he sound like me?" We just assumed we wouldn't get permission and worked around it. Ivan came and told us to change it. Then because we had impressionists/comics doing the voices any way, we went for Bill and figured it wouldn't be the first time changes in a character would be made mid-season on Television. I missed Lorenzo.... on the other hand some people didn't care for him because his voice was so well known for Garfield among many other things.
From the Internet Archive:
http://web.archive.org/web/200412161916 ... ichael.php

My own two cents:

Part of the dislike of Coulier's Venkman was not his fault. He just happened to come in as the show had been ordered to be dumbed down. When given better material (ie a JMS script like "The Grundle" or "Janine, You've Changed"), he does better, but still...compare the Season 1 episodes they had Coulier redub to the Music originals. It just isn't there. I go back and watch "The Grundle" and want to cry, because as relatively well as Coulier does, I know Lorenzo Music would have just completely owned that speech to Alec at the end.

So part of it wasn't Coulier's fault...but part of it was. He lacked Music's easygoing warmth, and sounded more like a frat boy. I think it was Zack who basically boiled it down to "Coulier sounded more like Bill Murray as Carl Spacker than Bill Murray as Venkman"
By fryguy81
#298394
and maybe part of that had to do with Coulier focusing more on just sounding like Murray rather than on the character of Venkman. Because he does tend to sound like he's just reciting lines rather than actually giving them.
#298535
fryguy81 wrote:and maybe part of that had to do with Coulier focusing more on just sounding like Murray rather than on the character of Venkman. Because he does tend to sound like he's just reciting lines rather than actually giving them.

another problem I have with Dave Coulier is--generally--he's a really bad comedian.

His actual comedy gimmick is "clean" stuff. He actually claimed recently he thinks he's being "cutting edge and revolutionary" by offering really clean stuff the whole family can enjoy since "all the modern comedians today just do loads of profanity and all that". I hate to say it...he's completely missing the point of why the comedians do their thing the way they do it.

I think that easily translated unfortunately in his performance as Venkman. You can even hear it in his voice. He knows he's doing an animated show, so he's aiming his performance at kids. That's...pretty much all he knows how to do.

Lorenzo Music was at the time considered a comedy legend who knew how to play to adults as well as kids. He was so talented that even though he wanted you to recognize his performance at that point solely by his voice, somehow he always managed to offer a distinction with each of his characters, so they all sounded like him, but still different. That. Takes. Talent.

It almost sounds like from what I've been reading here that they initially would've preferred to go with Coulier over Music had they known that Bill Murray would've approved of someone impersonating him. I'm glad (at least some of them) regretted that later on.

Dave Coulier may kinda sorta sound like Bill Murray( albeit only a little bit), but he fails to understand the smooth performance that Murray put into the character of Venkman. Even Music understood it, though knew how to alter it for all audiences, and still make it memorable.

Again..Dave Coulier markets his talents to kids hyped up on sugar, and insists he's "cutting edge" by pushing clean comedy; it's all you need to know.
#298737
I think I've figured it out. I'm about four episodes into the Slimer and RGB episodes and After a season and half of Coulier's Venkman I think I have figured out what my problem with his Venkman actually is. It's not that it's a lame Murray impression (there is that) and it's not that he completely treated it like a kids cartoon in the vein of Disney, Popeye, or Hanna Barbara (he did that too.).

I think the reason that he's horrible is that he simply cold reads his lines. I really focused on this and Buster Jones, Kath, Frank, and Maurice all act out their roles. There is a real sense of emotion, voice inflection, they are acting, but everytime it goes to Coulier his voice comes out as if he's simply reading from the script and there is no emotion, nothing, it's a cold read and a bad one at that. So when the scene calls for somber, it's montone flat Bill Murray impression, when it's heartfelt moment, it's a monotone flat Bill Murray impression.

To me that's the problem, the episode picks up steam, because there are some good episodes in these Slimer and season (ex. Robo-Buster, and the other four characters are going it's strong but when they cut to Venkman I can hear the tires of the scene squeal to a halt everytime. Check it out and listen to him talk, there isn't a single inflection or emotional tone it's the same voice flatly through a scene.
By The Joker
#299108
Some say he can ruin TV shows just by watching them. Some say even atheists pray for deliverance from him. All we know is....he's called the Coulier.

Seriously, I kind of have a weird relationship with Coulier's Venkman. It's weird because in an odd sort of way, he fits the goofier, cartoonier feel of the later seasons. If RGB had stayed at the level of the first two seasons, and only Peter's voice had changed, I'd dislike him a bit more. It's like I can't single out Coulier too much because the whole show was changing around him, y'know?

I probably didn't make myself very clear there, but that's how I feel....more or less. RIP Lorenzo Music :cool::cool::cool:
User avatar
By Fritz
#299227
Megalomaniac wrote:I didn't really like Coulier as Peter. For one thing, he lacked the like-hate relation between him and Slimer that Lorenzo portrayed so well.
I presume that was more Executive Meddling: "We can't have Venkman be mean to Slimer anymore--Slimer's the star of the show now, and furthermore it undermines cooperation and pro social values blah blah blah" :cool:
#299483
I went back and looked at the Coulier interview on the old GBC site and found this quote:

GBC: As a fellow comic, did you look up to Bill Murray. And did emulate his humor style or wit while doing the voice of Peter Venkman?
DC: As I mentioned earlier, I've always been a Bill Murray fan. I think that I'm doing more of an impression of him in 'Caddyshack' than the Ghostbusters movie.


Well, that explains a few suspicions, namely that Coulier was doing Carl Spackler, not Peter Venkman. Why?Interestingly, from what I'd heard of him on TV, Coulier's real voice sounds a lot more like Bill Murray than his Bill Murray impression does.
#299560
I too also think Slimer should've only been there for comic relief. Maybe occasionally helping to save the GBs, if all other options have been ruled out. But the key word is 'occasionally.
#335779
Fritz wrote:
Megalomaniac wrote:I didn't really like Coulier as Peter. For one thing, he lacked the like-hate relation between him and Slimer that Lorenzo portrayed so well.
I presume that was more Executive Meddling: "We can't have Venkman be mean to Slimer anymore--Slimer's the star of the show now, and furthermore it undermines cooperation and pro social values blah blah blah" :cool:
See Im always of 2 minds about this as I viewed this as charcater development (unintentional I realize) for Venkman. I imagined over time he would warm up to Slimer more.

When I was a kid I did notice the change in Venkman's but really didnt think much of it. As Fritz mentioned before I dont really think the degration in quality was Coulier's fault his performances in "The Grundel", "Robo-Buster" (a later season gem if you ask me), and "Janine you've changed" were good.
#341268
Ahem.
I think I agree with what's said above. Music made a better Peter. People tend to like more what they have seen/heard first, so it could seem no wonder that the audience prefers Music to Coulier. With me it happened vice versa - I watched RGB in soom distant childhood, but I can't remember anything but Egon's hairstyle from then. I started revising recently and watched seasons 1 and 2 in translation. Then the translated episodes were over, so I saw the rest of the series with the original voices in English. I kinda liked the character of Venkman, but I was not overhead crazy about him. Then I came across the discussion about that 'Music to Coulier' thing and watched some of the first episodes again, with Lorenzo Music. So now I AM overhead crazy about Venkman. To me, it is WAY much more important to give the soul to the character than simply sound like someone else.
As for the general change in the show and the Venkman-Slimer relationship, I always wanted them to become on better terms, but it should've taken much time and effort, imho. In this perspective I like most the episodes where Peter felt/demonstrated affection to Slimer but claimed the opposite.
#341670
I couldn't have said it better myself. Lorenzo music and bill Murray are two completly different characters, partially because the Lorenzo music version is meant to be enjoyed by adults and children. To me I like the way Bill murray pertraid his character, but still it isn't even nearly as loveable as Lorenzo music's. He is just Peter Venkman to me.

Lorenzo music brought an entire different feeling. A more admirable, and again loaveable aspect to the insaine Bill Murray. Lorenzo also brought more wit and charm. His voice was mezmorising, and till this day makes me melt everytime I hear it. I cannot look at Peter without thinking about that fat cat voice to back him up.

I have lost all respect for Bill Murray once I heard he was the man responcible for Lorenzo music's leaving. I believe Bill was just jelous that he didn't sound anything near as cool as Lorenzo. He was probably worked up that his popularity was being interfered with by a fictional character with that fat cat voice. So I think he got mad and got a really hopeless voice actor like Dave and made the character comepletly different... of course that's just me...

Dave Coulier (with all due respect) was just doing his job, but it jsut didn't work. It's slightly irritating. The sound of his voice makes my skin crawl. Bill Murray wasn't the only one to blame. They also had those damn children programing health and safety people come in and demolish their program and soiled it with a Slimer loving Venkman, a motherly Janine, and of course a show that might as well have been called Slimer. The show went down from there....

I'm so glad when i see a person agree with me on the topic. R.I.P the true Dr Peter Venkman... Lorenzo Music..

BTW may I add, it was a 'smooth' move (cough cough) to try and make it all better on Murray's part by doing the voice of garfield as a tribute to Lorenzo Music........... yeah........ i bet all those thousands you made on it beg to differ....
By Alex Newborn
#346939
I read an interview with Maurice LaMarche where they brought up the irony of Murray getting Music fired as Venkman because they didn't sound alike, and then later Murray being hired as the 'perfect' celebrity voice for Garfield. MLM said he planned to discuss that with Murray himself if he ever got the chance.

My son has been watching my RGB DVD's, he's 9. When it's an earlier season show with Lorenzo, Arsenio, etc. I will sit and watch with him and the years just slip away. When it's Coulier, who I actually LIKED on Nickelodeon's "Out of Control" and in the movie Detroit Comedy Jam prior to him landing the GB gig, I just have to leave the room.

For those of you who never saw OOC, Coulier did his best to come up with a catch-phrase on the show, accompanied with a gesture for each word: "Cut. It. Out!" I swear he tried to sneak it into RGB a couple of times, with the same pause after each word even though we couldn't see him make the scissor motion, the point, and the thumb-hike.

Lorenzo Music, whether as Venkman or as Garfield, was recognizable to me and therefore comfortable-feeling from his role as Carlton the Doorman from Rhoda, a show I believe he also produced? But the gimmick was, you never saw his face. Even if Carlton actually showed up in the apartment, as he did once in an episode that was a wild party, his entire head was obscured by some giant Mardi-Gras-style mask. But that's a very vague memory.

After Coulier took over the role, one late night on cable, I realized that a bit player in some movie was Lorenzo Music. The face was nothing like I'd ever have imagined! Pudgy, balding, moustached... I jammed a tape in the VCR and recorded the rest of the scene, just because I wanted proof of what he looked like, but I've no idea what I ever did with it. It was a shock and a letdown. He looked more like Venkman's Dad than Pete.

Coulier's Venkman is all surface, it's all 'technical acting' but technically, I hesitate to call it acting at all. He's got no grasp of the internal of the character. Music crawled inside the guy's head, knew him backwards and forwards, and what we heard was a PERFORMANCE, not an impression. A unique but valid approach to a character rather than an imitation of the 'real guy' which ironically will always fall flat simply because it is an attempt to copy someone else's work.

Maurice LaMarche, by the way, was doing a Harold Ramis impression, yes, I will grant you that. In fact, it's what got him the part. But the thing that's ironic there is that AFTER being told at the auditions "don't imitate the movie actors", he did his Ramis impression anyway, and that bit of boldness is what got him the role.

Coulier, similarly, said once on the Tonight Show (was it still Johnny back then?) that he had gone to an audition to 'loop' a Richard Pryor movie for TV, and he was the only white guy there. But his Pryor was so good, he still got the gig. So maybe his career prior to RGB had taught him that sounding alike was the best approach.

Still, there's something so insincere, so disconnected about his Venkman, even all these years later we're still discussing why we revile it. Would Coulier have made a perfectly acceptable Venkman from day one, if Music had never been hired? Perhaps. It's possible that with no other interpretation in our minds, we'd have thought he was fine.

Mind you, we'd have lost that little moment in the episode where they go to see the movie of their life story screened at the end, and Music criticizes Bll Murray's lack of resemblance with perfect sardonic irony.

I wouldn't have been quite as upset with the switch if they hadn't gone back and redubbed some of the earlier Music episodes with Coulier. That little bit of revisionism really annoyed me as a teenager. I kept a log of what all episodes aired locally in what order, and put an asterisk beside the ones that got redubbed. Wonder what happened to that? I was kinda glad they didn't include those atrocities on the DVD set, though the completist in me now thinks it could have been fun to toggle audio mid-line and see how truly unequal the performances are.

Speaking of my episode log, I began referring to the original voice cast episodes as the "Music Hall" episodes, which I thought was a nice pun. [Likewise, when former RGB voice-turned-talk-show-host Arsenio had Sigourney Weaver on his show one night as a guest, I marked the tape simply "Weaver Hall", as an intentional nod to the fictitious university building at the beginning of GB1.]

Back to Coulier, I had a bad Alanis Morrissette joke here, but I am exercising restraint.

Oh, and the changes to Winston and Janine were slightly irksome to me as well, just not as big a loss as Lorenzo. With Janine, there is at least the episode where they discover that her looks have been changing-- can't recall if they acknowledge the voice too?-- so there's a handy retcon for it. If there had been episodes where they explained the vocal and personality differences to Venkman, I wonder what the explanation would have been? Long-term exposure to ectoplasm?

The trend continues, though. I recently heard that Coulier had taken over voicing duties as Bob McKenzie when Rick Moranis declined to reprise the role. So he's STILL getting jobs because he sounds like the cast of Ghostbusters.

Alex
#454055
I think (and hate to admit it) The real Ghost Busters did jump the shark after Music left. However I did not realize that so many episodes was done in syndication. When I graduated from high school in 87, I want to say that is when The Real Ghostbusters turned to "Slimer and the Real Ghost Busters." But while I was stationed in Korea from early 88 to 89, I had my dad (God rest his soul) record the syndicated version of the real ghost busters. I did not realize that there was so many syndicated versions of the RGB, until I saw how many episodes my dad sent me.

Coulier turned Venkman, into ...someone else, and it just did not make a good match between the character and the voice actor..
#457169
I don't think it would be a stretch to say Dave Couiler is one of the least funny people ever. Even when Full House was on, I remember as a kid thinking that Bob Saget and John Stamos being the comedic relief on that show. Dave Couiler's Venkman is like a half hearted version of his Caddyshack Bill Murray voice which he used several times during Full House.

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