Discuss the upcoming movie to be released in 2020 and directed by Jason Reitman.
User avatar
By Ron Daniels
#4962350

I get that a lot of fans are trying to head canon things into making sense. I get the temptation to want to do that. But unless a character says “Hey. This is how it works. Gozer is weaker because…” it’s just us fans trying to make sense of a messy plot. Sometimes you can tell when a film wants the audience to figure things out for itself, which is fine. But there are other times when you have to question the logic & say “hey wait a minute. Ghostbusters has a certain verisimilitude & this goes against that”.
Not sure how much of it is trying to make this is head cannon and how much of it just seems to be served up for the audience. I mean the last time I had an inter dimensional gateway blown up on me, I had to take these huge water pills and Tylenol for a couple of weeks.

I do think there is a lot left lacking with respect to the plot related to Gozer though. Between the two movies, we get about 15-20 minutes of Gozer lore and candidly some of GBA seemingly retcons what we learned in GB1.

I think also something that just sticks out to me is Gozer in GB1 seems powerful. GBA builds Gozer up to
be powerful. Last time I checked there were no Ghostbusters to whip Gozer’s butt in 1945, 1908, or any of the other times listed on the wall in the temple. So what gives? Is Gozer not that big of a deal and we have been misled the entire time?

I’ve been in a minority about this since I joined this community in 1997, but Ghostbusters II presents the more coherent plot for the “bad guy” that makes sense. Taking over the world and ruling it as a despot just makes
more sense that arriving to destroy a world. Just arrive
as a meteorite in space and destroy the thing, ya know?
User avatar
By mrmichaelt
#4962352
Ron Daniels wrote: Last time I checked there were no Ghostbusters to whip Gozer’s butt in 1945, 1908, or any of the other times listed on the wall in the temple. So what gives? Is Gozer not that big of a deal and we have been misled the entire time?
1945, I'll give you. I can only think the tragedy on May 20 led to the closure of the site including stopping construction of the temple. And the remnants of the Cult of Gozer, once all was said and done with paperwork and legalities, quietly finished the temple I guess they would have to have done it after 1984 otherwise there would be a feedback issue with two temples in operation. So in 1945 and 1984, the uncompleted Summerville temple could not properly function. So the only times Gozer was successfully brought back to Earth was 1984 and 2021. Then in 1908 and before, I guess we assume there was no Gozerian temples around to channel and focus P.K.E. to open a portal to attract and bring Gozer back to Earth. Anything in the Middle East from ancient times were likely destroyed by invading/conquering forces, natural disasters, etc. but naturally worshipers kept records that Shandor discovered in his era and restarted the cult.
User avatar
By Ron Daniels
#4962353
For you it was a tragedy, for them it may have been the most important days of his life, but for me it was a Tuesday.

If the lack of a functional temple was the reason nothing happened, how do we explain the 1908/1909 Blast? :walterpeck:
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User avatar
By mrmichaelt
#4962356
If it was supernatural, then something that was going to happen regardless of a temple existing or not at the time unrelated to Gozer. Gozer isn't the only locus of interdimensional crossrips. Some cult could have been trying to summon their god but it went horribly wrong the energies were misused, resulting in an explosion on the scale of a nuclear blast.

And with GBII, I mean if Janosz kidnapped any other baby, Vigo would have won.
User avatar
By RichardLess
#4962366
Ron Daniels wrote: December 1st, 2021, 5:36 pm

I get that a lot of fans are trying to head canon things into making sense. I get the temptation to want to do that. But unless a character says “Hey. This is how it works. Gozer is weaker because…” it’s just us fans trying to make sense of a messy plot. Sometimes you can tell when a film wants the audience to figure things out for itself, which is fine. But there are other times when you have to question the logic & say “hey wait a minute. Ghostbusters has a certain verisimilitude & this goes against that”.
Not sure how much of it is trying to make this is head cannon and how much of it just seems to be served up for the audience. I mean the last time I had an inter dimensional gateway blown up on me, I had to take these huge water pills and Tylenol for a couple of weeks.

I do think there is a lot left lacking with respect to the plot related to Gozer though. Between the two movies, we get about 15-20 minutes of Gozer lore and candidly some of GBA seemingly retcons what we learned in GB1.

I think also something that just sticks out to me is Gozer in GB1 seems powerful. GBA builds Gozer up to
be powerful. Last time I checked there were no Ghostbusters to whip Gozer’s butt in 1945, 1908, or any of the other times listed on the wall in the temple. So what gives? Is Gozer not that big of a deal and we have been misled the entire time?

I’ve been in a minority about this since I joined this community in 1997, but Ghostbusters II presents the more coherent plot for the “bad guy” that makes sense. Taking over the world and ruling it as a despot just makes
more sense that arriving to destroy a world. Just arrive
as a meteorite in space and destroy the thing, ya know?
It’s 100% the fans head cannoning this to make sense of it. I appreciate mrmichaelst attempts at trying to make sense of all this but a lot of it just feels like grasping at straws to me. There was nothing in the first movie where we are wondering “wait..but why did?”. The only thing in the 2nd movie like that is the Ghostbusters in painting at the end. It’s suppose to be a joke but it leaves the audience kinda going…wait a sec. Why did that happen? It doesn’t derail the movie or anything because it’s about the only example of it and it’s right at the end. Though I do think that painting doesn’t get the laugh it needs to and so people walk out of that theatre feeling like the last joke was kinda lame, which is never something you want in a comedy.

Like…the PKE energy making the marshmallow men come to life still doesn’t make any sense. I’m sorry but…the only reason a Stay Puft Marshmallow Man being alive is a thing is because there was a cause and effect. There was a set up and pay off. We all know the real reason those little Stay Puft guys are there is because it was a thing from the first movie and they are adorable. Again…they had the easiest way to make them work built in to the movie. Egon kept samples of the mash mallow man goo and when the PKE energy starts to build or whatever then they come back to life. Appearing out of a bag of Stay Puft Marshmallows…it’s so lazy it gives me a headache.

There’s no way Jason Reitman and Gil Kenan were like “Ok. The reason we are going to have the terror dogs turn into burnt husks is (insert mrmichaelt’s explanation here) or Mr Stay Puft is back in tiny form because(insert his explanation here) but we won’t bother giving the audience any of that information because it’s better for the audience to figure things out for themselves…in a Ghostbusters movie”

The reason why Ghostbusters works so wonderfully is that every feels plausible and like it’s been thought out(even though behind the scenes a lot of it was done on the fly). The foundation feels rock solid.

Now the average audience member isn’t going to notice most of these plot logic contrivances. But the more the movie sits with me, the more the cracks in the foundation start to appear. I really think they were more concerned with the references than the reason for those references.

I’d love to ask Jason why little Stay Puft Men exist in this movie. We know the logic behind the characters involvement in the original film. What’s the purpose here?

I’d love to ask him why and what Gozer’s plan was and why was it not the same as in 1984? Was this stuff they thought about and reasoned out?

Somehow I feel MrmichaelT has thought about this time more than they did.

Think of how the kids come across Muncher. It feels random to me. But all they would’ve had to do is this: The Ecto 1 has an internal PKE meter (like a GPS system but for PKE) and Trevor is just following where it points. Boom. Problem solved AND we get the added bonus of having some cool new Ecto 1 mythology.

That’s the other problem. Some of these are just easy fixes.

I guess I’ll sum this up by saying 2/3rds of this movie is really, really good. Then the final 3rd is like…WOW awesome! Ooh ok..huh? Oh wow awesome again! Wait..but that isn’t so…Oh wow look! sweet! Geez dial it down Dan…WOW did they just?? Awesome! But wait..now how & why did?..Oh my god hand me the Kleenex. Bravo. Bravo.

The movie has incredible highs but also some really low lows. I hate agreeing with a lot of the critics, because I’m not against fan service or nostalgia. But I am against using it in the wrong way. Sometimes they nailed it here. Most times they did. But then a few times it feels like they put no thought into beyond “the fans will love this! Look! Adorable Mr Stay Pufts! We are going to make a fortune in merchandise!”
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User avatar
By RichardLess
#4962374
mrmichaelt wrote: December 2nd, 2021, 12:02 am Ha ha, well I hope I at least gave you some good food for thought that you never considered before, RichardLess. ;)
You 100% did. In fact you got me totally re thinking how the climax of the first movie works with the explosion.

I’m curious. Can you put that massive GB knowledge to work on how the GB’s ended up in the painting at the end of GB2? I have my own theories on how it works but based on the stuff you came up with here, I’m thinking you can make it work a little better lol
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User avatar
By mrmichaelt
#4962393
RichardLess wrote: December 2nd, 2021, 1:04 am I’m curious. Can you put that massive GB knowledge to work on how the GB’s ended up in the painting at the end of GB2? I have my own theories on how it works but based on the stuff you came up with here, I’m thinking you can make it work a little better lol
That's another thing I've already brooded about as well, ha ha.

By New Years Eve, Vigo had drawn enough power from the negatively charged psychomagnotheric ectoplasm to take a semi corporeal form, leave the painting in a limited range (i.e. the museum room), and exhibit abilities exceeding a Class 4 and mirroring a Class 7. Bonding to the psychomagnotheric ectoplasm was a double edged sword that made him weak against an equally positive psychomagnotheric charge. The singing from the people outside coincidentally provides the sufficient equally positive charge to temporarily neutralize the bond so as a result, it discorporates him, forcing him to take refuge in the painting again. His standard ghost form is apparently the floating Vigo head. He tries to possess Ray and transmogrifies him like he tried with Oscar but the singing and Winston's positively charged psychomagnotheric slime ejects him. Now drenched in the slime, the two proton streams force him back into the painting because he's still anchored to the painting, by whatever spell he cast before he died, otherwise he would have been wrangled and trapped like any other ghost. Vigo drenched in positively charged psychomagnotheric slime forcefully shoved by positive proton streams into a painting infused with negatively charged psychomagnotheric energy and probably black magic is like a match tossed onto a tanker truck of gasoline. The explosion in the painting is a physical manifestation of the dispersal of all the psychomagnotheric energy Vigo absorbed and his hold on the river and slime wall (hence why the latter dissipates simultaneously). The manifestation of Ghostbusters and Oscar is in the painting is a physical sign it was flipped to a dominant positive charge and in a way, psychic imprinting. As they fired into Vigo in the painting, there was a brief mental link forged with them and their essences were imprinted on the painting. Whereas, Vigo is so weakened, he is reduced to a non-visible form like a Class 1 or 2 echo incapable of interaction on the physical plane and thus, a non-threat.
User avatar
By Ron Daniels
#4962395
Janosh isn’t a bad guy. He’s a pawn much like Louis/Dana in GB1. He gets saved by the Ghostbusters and covered in positively charged mood slime at the same time as a painting gets covered in positively charged mold slime.

The painting winds up being of the people who saved him in the style of art he is most knowledgeable in — not sure that is the takeaway we were supposed to get, but it’s what always stuck with me.
By joezlo
#4962420
mrmichaelt wrote: December 2nd, 2021, 3:49 am
RichardLess wrote: December 2nd, 2021, 1:04 am I’m curious. Can you put that massive GB knowledge to work on how the GB’s ended up in the painting at the end of GB2? I have my own theories on how it works but based on the stuff you came up with here, I’m thinking you can make it work a little better lol
That's another thing I've already brooded about as well, ha ha.

By New Years Eve, Vigo had drawn enough power from the negatively charged psychomagnotheric ectoplasm to take a semi corporeal form, leave the painting in a limited range (i.e. the museum room), and exhibit abilities exceeding a Class 4 and mirroring a Class 7. Bonding to the psychomagnotheric ectoplasm was a double edged sword that made him weak against an equally positive psychomagnotheric charge. The singing from the people outside coincidentally provides the sufficient equally positive charge to temporarily neutralize the bond so as a result, it discorporates him, forcing him to take refuge in the painting again. His standard ghost form is apparently the floating Vigo head. He tries to possess Ray and transmogrifies him like he tried with Oscar but the singing and Winston's positively charged psychomagnotheric slime ejects him. Now drenched in the slime, the two proton streams force him back into the painting because he's still anchored to the painting, by whatever spell he cast before he died, otherwise he would have been wrangled and trapped like any other ghost. Vigo drenched in positively charged psychomagnotheric slime forcefully shoved by positive proton streams into a painting infused with negatively charged psychomagnotheric energy and probably black magic is like a match tossed onto a tanker truck of gasoline. The explosion in the painting is a physical manifestation of the dispersal of all the psychomagnotheric energy Vigo absorbed and his hold on the river and slime wall (hence why the latter dissipates simultaneously). The manifestation of Ghostbusters and Oscar is in the painting is a physical sign it was flipped to a dominant positive charge and in a way, psychic imprinting. As they fired into Vigo in the painting, there was a brief mental link forged with them and their essences were imprinted on the painting. Whereas, Vigo is so weakened, he is reduced to a non-visible form like a Class 1 or 2 echo incapable of interaction on the physical plane and thus, a non-threat.
Add to that all the New Yorkers outside who were psychic imaging the GB's.

Though I suppose by 1991, if the game is cannon, those positive vibes are kaput.
By Chris Weitzel
#4962426
RichardLess wrote: December 1st, 2021, 10:00 pm
Ron Daniels wrote: December 1st, 2021, 5:36 pm

Not sure how much of it is trying to make this is head cannon and how much of it just seems to be served up for the audience. I mean the last time I had an inter dimensional gateway blown up on me, I had to take these huge water pills and Tylenol for a couple of weeks.

I do think there is a lot left lacking with respect to the plot related to Gozer though. Between the two movies, we get about 15-20 minutes of Gozer lore and candidly some of GBA seemingly retcons what we learned in GB1.

I think also something that just sticks out to me is Gozer in GB1 seems powerful. GBA builds Gozer up to
be powerful. Last time I checked there were no Ghostbusters to whip Gozer’s butt in 1945, 1908, or any of the other times listed on the wall in the temple. So what gives? Is Gozer not that big of a deal and we have been misled the entire time?

I’ve been in a minority about this since I joined this community in 1997, but Ghostbusters II presents the more coherent plot for the “bad guy” that makes sense. Taking over the world and ruling it as a despot just makes
more sense that arriving to destroy a world. Just arrive
as a meteorite in space and destroy the thing, ya know?
It’s 100% the fans head cannoning this to make sense of it. I appreciate mrmichaelst attempts at trying to make sense of all this but a lot of it just feels like grasping at straws to me. There was nothing in the first movie where we are wondering “wait..but why did?”. The only thing in the 2nd movie like that is the Ghostbusters in painting at the end. It’s suppose to be a joke but it leaves the audience kinda going…wait a sec. Why did that happen? It doesn’t derail the movie or anything because it’s about the only example of it and it’s right at the end. Though I do think that painting doesn’t get the laugh it needs to and so people walk out of that theatre feeling like the last joke was kinda lame, which is never something you want in a comedy.

Like…the PKE energy making the marshmallow men come to life still doesn’t make any sense. I’m sorry but…the only reason a Stay Puft Marshmallow Man being alive is a thing is because there was a cause and effect. There was a set up and pay off. We all know the real reason those little Stay Puft guys are there is because it was a thing from the first movie and they are adorable. Again…they had the easiest way to make them work built in to the movie. Egon kept samples of the mash mallow man goo and when the PKE energy starts to build or whatever then they come back to life. Appearing out of a bag of Stay Puft Marshmallows…it’s so lazy it gives me a headache.

There’s no way Jason Reitman and Gil Kenan were like “Ok. The reason we are going to have the terror dogs turn into burnt husks is (insert mrmichaelt’s explanation here) or Mr Stay Puft is back in tiny form because(insert his explanation here) but we won’t bother giving the audience any of that information because it’s better for the audience to figure things out for themselves…in a Ghostbusters movie”

The reason why Ghostbusters works so wonderfully is that every feels plausible and like it’s been thought out(even though behind the scenes a lot of it was done on the fly). The foundation feels rock solid.

Now the average audience member isn’t going to notice most of these plot logic contrivances. But the more the movie sits with me, the more the cracks in the foundation start to appear. I really think they were more concerned with the references than the reason for those references.

I’d love to ask Jason why little Stay Puft Men exist in this movie. We know the logic behind the characters involvement in the original film. What’s the purpose here?

I’d love to ask him why and what Gozer’s plan was and why was it not the same as in 1984? Was this stuff they thought about and reasoned out?

Somehow I feel MrmichaelT has thought about this time more than they did.

Think of how the kids come across Muncher. It feels random to me. But all they would’ve had to do is this: The Ecto 1 has an internal PKE meter (like a GPS system but for PKE) and Trevor is just following where it points. Boom. Problem solved AND we get the added bonus of having some cool new Ecto 1 mythology.

That’s the other problem. Some of these are just easy fixes.

I guess I’ll sum this up by saying 2/3rds of this movie is really, really good. Then the final 3rd is like…WOW awesome! Ooh ok..huh? Oh wow awesome again! Wait..but that isn’t so…Oh wow look! sweet! Geez dial it down Dan…WOW did they just?? Awesome! But wait..now how & why did?..Oh my god hand me the Kleenex. Bravo. Bravo.

The movie has incredible highs but also some really low lows. I hate agreeing with a lot of the critics, because I’m not against fan service or nostalgia. But I am against using it in the wrong way. Sometimes they nailed it here. Most times they did. But then a few times it feels like they put no thought into beyond “the fans will love this! Look! Adorable Mr Stay Pufts! We are going to make a fortune in merchandise!”
These two quotes deserve to be framed and/or put into some kind of fan-based Ghostbusters lore and philosophy guide.
User avatar
By RichardLess
#4962446
Chris Weitzel wrote: December 2nd, 2021, 12:58 pm
RichardLess wrote: December 1st, 2021, 10:00 pm

It’s 100% the fans head cannoning this to make sense of it. I appreciate mrmichaelst attempts at trying to make sense of all this but a lot of it just feels like grasping at straws to me. There was nothing in the first movie where we are wondering “wait..but why did?”. The only thing in the 2nd movie like that is the Ghostbusters in painting at the end. It’s suppose to be a joke but it leaves the audience kinda going…wait a sec. Why did that happen? It doesn’t derail the movie or anything because it’s about the only example of it and it’s right at the end. Though I do think that painting doesn’t get the laugh it needs to and so people walk out of that theatre feeling like the last joke was kinda lame, which is never something you want in a comedy.

Like…the PKE energy making the marshmallow men come to life still doesn’t make any sense. I’m sorry but…the only reason a Stay Puft Marshmallow Man being alive is a thing is because there was a cause and effect. There was a set up and pay off. We all know the real reason those little Stay Puft guys are there is because it was a thing from the first movie and they are adorable. Again…they had the easiest way to make them work built in to the movie. Egon kept samples of the mash mallow man goo and when the PKE energy starts to build or whatever then they come back to life. Appearing out of a bag of Stay Puft Marshmallows…it’s so lazy it gives me a headache.

There’s no way Jason Reitman and Gil Kenan were like “Ok. The reason we are going to have the terror dogs turn into burnt husks is (insert mrmichaelt’s explanation here) or Mr Stay Puft is back in tiny form because(insert his explanation here) but we won’t bother giving the audience any of that information because it’s better for the audience to figure things out for themselves…in a Ghostbusters movie”

The reason why Ghostbusters works so wonderfully is that every feels plausible and like it’s been thought out(even though behind the scenes a lot of it was done on the fly). The foundation feels rock solid.

Now the average audience member isn’t going to notice most of these plot logic contrivances. But the more the movie sits with me, the more the cracks in the foundation start to appear. I really think they were more concerned with the references than the reason for those references.

I’d love to ask Jason why little Stay Puft Men exist in this movie. We know the logic behind the characters involvement in the original film. What’s the purpose here?

I’d love to ask him why and what Gozer’s plan was and why was it not the same as in 1984? Was this stuff they thought about and reasoned out?

Somehow I feel MrmichaelT has thought about this time more than they did.

Think of how the kids come across Muncher. It feels random to me. But all they would’ve had to do is this: The Ecto 1 has an internal PKE meter (like a GPS system but for PKE) and Trevor is just following where it points. Boom. Problem solved AND we get the added bonus of having some cool new Ecto 1 mythology.

That’s the other problem. Some of these are just easy fixes.

I guess I’ll sum this up by saying 2/3rds of this movie is really, really good. Then the final 3rd is like…WOW awesome! Ooh ok..huh? Oh wow awesome again! Wait..but that isn’t so…Oh wow look! sweet! Geez dial it down Dan…WOW did they just?? Awesome! But wait..now how & why did?..Oh my god hand me the Kleenex. Bravo. Bravo.

The movie has incredible highs but also some really low lows. I hate agreeing with a lot of the critics, because I’m not against fan service or nostalgia. But I am against using it in the wrong way. Sometimes they nailed it here. Most times they did. But then a few times it feels like they put no thought into beyond “the fans will love this! Look! Adorable Mr Stay Pufts! We are going to make a fortune in merchandise!”
These two quotes deserve to be framed and/or put into some kind of fan-based Ghostbusters lore and philosophy guide.
Which two quotes?
User avatar
By RichardLess
#4962450
mrmichaelt wrote: December 2nd, 2021, 3:49 am
RichardLess wrote: December 2nd, 2021, 1:04 am I’m curious. Can you put that massive GB knowledge to work on how the GB’s ended up in the painting at the end of GB2? I have my own theories on how it works but based on the stuff you came up with here, I’m thinking you can make it work a little better lol
That's another thing I've already brooded about as well, ha ha.

By New Years Eve, Vigo had drawn enough power from the negatively charged psychomagnotheric ectoplasm to take a semi corporeal form, leave the painting in a limited range (i.e. the museum room), and exhibit abilities exceeding a Class 4 and mirroring a Class 7. Bonding to the psychomagnotheric ectoplasm was a double edged sword that made him weak against an equally positive psychomagnotheric charge. The singing from the people outside coincidentally provides the sufficient equally positive charge to temporarily neutralize the bond so as a result, it discorporates him, forcing him to take refuge in the painting again. His standard ghost form is apparently the floating Vigo head. He tries to possess Ray and transmogrifies him like he tried with Oscar but the singing and Winston's positively charged psychomagnotheric slime ejects him. Now drenched in the slime, the two proton streams force him back into the painting because he's still anchored to the painting, by whatever spell he cast before he died, otherwise he would have been wrangled and trapped like any other ghost. Vigo drenched in positively charged psychomagnotheric slime forcefully shoved by positive proton streams into a painting infused with negatively charged psychomagnotheric energy and probably black magic is like a match tossed onto a tanker truck of gasoline. The explosion in the painting is a physical manifestation of the dispersal of all the psychomagnotheric energy Vigo absorbed and his hold on the river and slime wall (hence why the latter dissipates simultaneously). The manifestation of Ghostbusters and Oscar is in the painting is a physical sign it was flipped to a dominant positive charge and in a way, psychic imprinting. As they fired into Vigo in the painting, there was a brief mental link forged with them and their essences were imprinted on the painting. Whereas, Vigo is so weakened, he is reduced to a non-visible form like a Class 1 or 2 echo incapable of interaction on the physical plane and thus, a non-threat.
Haha. That was amazing. Well done. That’s the most Dan Aykroyd style paragraph ever written by someone who isn’t Dan Aykroyd.

Wait…unless….mrmichaelt IS Dan Aykroyd. No that can’t be. I don’t think I’ve ever heard you mention Vodka once.
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By tylergfoster
#4962473
I don't know what I would've done to fix the actual climax of the movie beyond the stuff I've outlined in the reaction thread, which is all about the emotional component rather than the plot component.

But the first thing I would've done would be give Callie and Grooberson a full role in the climax by having Podcast blow the Aztec Death Whistle and have it knock the Terror Dogs out of them. Maybe this happens in conjunction with the proton beams holding down the ghost well being deactivated (I don't remember the movie's exact sequence of events), and the Terror Dogs could then use the loose spiritual energy to turn into the sentinel-style versions from the toys, although if I were rewriting the script, I would not only do something different than Gozer, I would do something different than Terror Dogs.
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By Dr.D
#4962480
It's interesting to note that, of a small group of people I've talked to about the movie, the ones who seem to have the least problem are the ones who had no knowledge of the OGBs actually showing up in the movie, and that the surprise of that enhanced their experience.
User avatar
By groschopf
#4962487
mrmichaelt wrote: November 30th, 2021, 4:41 am Hmm, I saw it as their attempt to stall then Peter resorted to insults to stall while the others tried to regroup and figure out how to get the capacitors working.
You're right. Peter is definitely stalling, but I suspect for a slightly different reason. Something I noticed watching the film in IMAX tonight...

Gozer uncrosses the stream and throws the OG's against the Ecto-1. There's an overhead shot where you can see Winston's pack from above. The red lights on the cyclotron are static, and the blue lights on the power cell are running the power up sequence. It literally looks like they used a GBfans light kit in that pack.

Their packs were momentarily dead in the water, and Winston was the first one to get his pack back online (which Peter could probably hear) in order to take a shot.
mrmichaelt wrote: November 30th, 2021, 4:41 am I don't think they stupidly crossed the streams on Gozer, they knew the presence of "the P.K.E. cloud" was going to skew the results enough that they wouldn't die in the most horrible fashion.
Totally agree, because what else could they do? Ray said Egon took all of the traps. I imagine time was of the essence, so they had to use their old power move and hope to blow something up "real good."
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By RichardLess
#4962801
tylergfoster wrote: December 2nd, 2021, 7:23 pm I don't know what I would've done to fix the actual climax of the movie beyond the stuff I've outlined in the reaction thread, which is all about the emotional component rather than the plot component.

But the first thing I would've done would be give Callie and Grooberson a full role in the climax by having Podcast blow the Aztec Death Whistle and have it knock the Terror Dogs out of them. Maybe this happens in conjunction with the proton beams holding down the ghost well being deactivated (I don't remember the movie's exact sequence of events), and the Terror Dogs could then use the loose spiritual energy to turn into the sentinel-style versions from the toys, although if I were rewriting the script, I would not only do something different than Gozer, I would do something different than Terror Dogs.
Yeah I can’t help but be let down by not seeing something new. I don’t mind the connections to the original film like Ivo Shandor but I think the big bad ghost should’ve been Gozer’s boss. Since it’s said Gozer was a demigod. Well how about having the thing Gozer was trying to maybe get away from. Or Gozer’s role is to conquer realms for its master. Now the master is coming to collect the realm that defied him.

It wouldve been neat to see this being depicted in art a few times in the movie. It’s truly terrifying, hideous. They tease that the masters form is said to be so horrific one glance causes your heart to stop from the fear.

So the finale comes. Maybe the GB’s aren’t even there at the mine at this point. It’s the army/police that are there and the GB’s are watching on a TV in the local jail. The portal opens. Here it comes. We are going to get a glimpse of the big bad in all it’s gnarly evil glory. But…

We pull a Monty Python & the Holy Grail and what comes out is the most adorable innocent looking creature ever. This thing makes Baby Yoda look ugly. It’s adorable and it’s tiny and when it speaks it speaks with this adorable squeaky chipmunk like voice. And suddenly the scene turns horrific as we cut to the GB’s watching the events unfold on TV. There’s screaming, bodies thrown left and right. Gun fire and chaos with Cries of “Help us! Oh god help us!” and then the camera cuts off…

But yeah seeing Gozer again…I feel it undoes the first film a little. I don’t know. Having a new baddie would’ve been better I think.
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User avatar
By RealGhostbusterJay
#4962899
So many good points here.

Yes as fans were gonna have to come up with our own canons and reasons for it. LFL has a whole story group and continuity tracker for Star Wars...I mean they should all be sacked due to the gross contradictions I've seen from project to project but they have a group. There isn't one of these for GB even though between IDW, the Crossrip, Folks here, GB News it would be more then easy to contract a fan to get these ducks in a row and rather then make a movie for fans that is still made for general movie fans they could take a page from the director or Blade Runner 2049 and Dune. Those films are made for fans of the material. Not general cinema goers. Maybe another book by Dan Wallace can help answer some of these but the focus by Sony will be to get a new film or project out as Afterlife was delayed so long but we can hope perhaps the story is a bit more original and perhaps a bit more thought out with these questions...or they ask someone to read it and pose these questions first.
By Devil Master
#4963032
Chris Weitzel wrote: November 30th, 2021, 1:26 pm I think it is an annoying physics thing that killed my suspension of disbelief for a moment.

Gozer grabs the proton streams and uses them as a whip. Vigo just kind of used an energy blast to counteract the streams and knock the guys over to stop them from shooting. The proton stream is a beam of energy. Ghosts are also pure energy, hence the beam being able to wrap around them, etc. However, even if a ghost could physically grab a beam of energy, the minute they attempt to whip the energy beam, wouldn't it break the flow of the energy itself? I don't think there would be a logical way to whiplash people all the way back to the emitter point.

That is splitting hairs I guess because nothing in the movie technically needs to make sense or be consistent with theoretical real-world physics, because it is a movie. It did pull me out of the moment though.
I used to think that too, until I remembered a particular scene from GB2. When they catch the Scoleri brothers, they ensnare one of the ghosts, who then grabs the beams and tries to wrangle himself out, as if they were ropes.
So Gozer being able to use the beams as whips doesn't flow (pun intended) with how a proton beam would work in real life, but it it consistent with how it works in the movies.
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By WCat2000
#4965633
There’s a lot of good points here and I really like the explanations people have come up with. It does seem like not enough thought was put into certain things but maybe they were to a certain point. Either way it adds to it and it’s fun coming up with stuff.

Correct me if my wrong but I’ve always thought Stay Puft Marshmallow Man was a separate entity created by Gozer not actually Gozer itself. I’ve looked it up and I guess I am wrong. The cartoon probably influenced this but have not seen it in many years.

The mini pufts are pretty much portrayed as separate characters and I’ve just explained them as the spirit of Stay Puft returning along with the terror dog because it he was part of Gozer but the Video Game reason works too. I’ve played it.

I’ve always loved Stay Puft. I thought their reaction to the OGB was so cute cause they remember them. Made me think his personality could be split and some were friendly but maybe they were glad they showed up because they wanted revenge?! Haha.
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By One time
#4965679
If the proton streams cause recoil and exert momentum on the wand when wrangling ghosts, that works both ways. It means the person wielding the wand can be knocked back by a force coming from the opposite direction.

As for Gozer, I think they should have used Tiamat instead. Tiamat is an actual goddess from ancient Sumerian religion. Tiamat was also in GBTVG where it was said that Tiamat and her followers banished Gozer from Earth. So GBTVG actually connected the real Sumerian afterlife /underworld and religion with the fantasy version in Ghostbusters.

Gozer is completely made up in terms of a Sumerian God. The name Gozer is of Germanic origin (similar to the words Geezer in English, Gozer in Dutch and in Yiddish, basically meaning old man or man). Vinz Clortho and Zuul are also not Sumerian. Vinz is just short for Vincent and has nothing to do with Sumerian or Mesopotamian myths. Why you would call a 5000 year old Middle Eastern hell hound Vincent is anyone's guess. Most of these words (Vinz, Clortho, etc) just sound Yiddish or German which makes sense as both Ivan Reitman and Harold Ramis are Jewish. So these "Sumerian" entities are just names made up in 1983 by 2 Jewish people in a language that is probably the most "foreign" to them: German or Yiddish.

In actual Sumerian afterlife myths the God that comes closest to how Gozer appears in GB is maybe EREŠ.KI.GAL (Queen.Earth Goddess.The Great) Queen of the the Sumerian underworld.

Using Tiamat (actual Sumerian Goddess of primordial chaos) would have expanded the Ghostbusters universe with things that are based in actual reality and have allowed fans a goldmine of real world knowledge to dive into. Also seeing as Tiamat was in both Ghostbusters the video Game (as an opponent of "Gozer") and in Real Ghostbusters it would have been not far fetched at all. Also it would have opened up creativity for future movies featuring perhaps Enlil or even higher Gods in the Sumerian Annukani (pantheon).

But using Gozer (again) in Afterlife was pretty childish / boring in my opinion and showed a lack of creativity. Now when we think of when the Ghostbusters defeated Gozer we have to say when? In the middle of Manhattan blowing off the top floors of a highrise with the world watching or that one time in the midwest on that 50 square yards of dirt when no one was there?

I think the faults really stem from Jasons initial vision of before he wanted to make this movie. "A little girl on a farm with a proton pack". That's the mental image in Jasons head that started this movie and I think it was a faulty start. It just leads everyone down a boring path with too many "fixes" required in terms of mental leaps. (How do the OGB's get there? How can we make this dirt farm final scene look epic? How do we explain why Egon robbed the Ghostbusters (???)) Just none of it makes sense if you set it on a farm in the middle of nowhere. Just because of Jason's original mental image.

In my view it should have been in NYC with the "unexplained sudden Earthquakes" being "unexplained sudden fluctuations in physical constants" observed by students (Phoebe and Oscar) during their physics lab classes. Ray being Grooberson, Egon could have died by committing Suthanasia (suicide euthanasia) on purpose as one of his experiments, etc.

Just by killing the dirt farm in the midwest idea a whole lot could have been fixed. So many more avenues would have opened up creatively.
By joezlo
#4965682
Tiamats been done bro. RGB & comics.

Jason & Gil did a phenomenal job.

I don't agree with it 100% and I'm waiting to pass judgement until their next GB outing.

But don't forget, the original version of GB 2 had the guys latching into the power grid to stop the baddie and Medjuck & Gross said - "You can't do this, the cartoon already did"

So they've got that going for them; 30 plus years of GB stories fans are familiar with - not to mention head cannon.
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By One time
#4965737
joezlo wrote: January 19th, 2022, 12:46 pm Tiamats been done bro. RGB & comics.

Jason & Gil did a phenomenal job.

I don't agree with it 100% and I'm waiting to pass judgement until their next GB outing.

But don't forget, the original version of GB 2 had the guys latching into the power grid to stop the baddie and Medjuck & Gross said - "You can't do this, the cartoon already did"

So they've got that going for them; 30 plus years of GB stories fans are familiar with - not to mention head cannon.
RGB has an episode where Egon turns into a ghost (literally called -Egon's Ghost-). That didn't stop them doing the same thing in Afterlife.

So something having been done in a cartoon is no reason that it can't be repeated or continued in a movie. That makes no sense either. That's like saying Gozer was in the first movie, we are legally not allowed to put him in Afterlife. All of this IP is owned by Sony, they can do what they want.
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By WCat2000
#4965746
I don’t think Jason’s idea of a girl or setting it on a farm was a problem. Certain things just needed to be explained a little more.

I’m fine with Gozer again. I would have preferred a new villain but I understand they did not want anything to overshadow Egon and the ending.

I’m very happy it was not set in NY again. The supernatural can occur anywhere. It needed a different location. It was a nice change whatever the story was.

I agree the OGB showing up was too convenient but I can believe they knew were Egon lived and had their own personal gear they kept. They just should have been built up a more like some of the ideas here.

I think they could have come up with better reasoning for why the original team broke up. It’s hard to swallow imo. I think it half works.
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By One time
#4965765
WCat2000 wrote: January 19th, 2022, 4:53 pm I think they could have come up with better reasoning for why the original team broke up. It’s hard to swallow imo. I think it half works.
Egon robbed the Ghostbusters

because

Ray stopped believing supernatural threats were real.

Those two facts are at the heart of Afterlife’s story.

How stupid would those two central (fundamental) concepts to a Ghostbusters movie have sounded to us in 2018?

I think it goes to show Jason is more of a drama director than someone that really knows a lot about in depth Ghostbusters. I remember him confusing a Gigameter with a PKE meter in an interview once which was surprising.
Last edited by One time on January 20th, 2022, 2:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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By WCat2000
#4965776
That’s funny I thought the Gigameter was an updated PKE meter when I was kid. It totally looks that way. Especially if you’ve never seen a Gigameter.

Anyway we don’t know if it was just him that came up with it but now I want them to give Ray a plausible reason for him not believing Gozer was coming back. Just to give some credibility. He still believed just not that...but why?

Does he say why in phone call? I can’t remember everything he said now.
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By One time
#4965777
WCat2000 wrote: January 20th, 2022, 2:30 am That’s funny I thought the Gigameter was an updated PKE meter when I was kid. It totally looks that way. Especially if you’ve never seen a Gigameter.

Anyway we don’t know if it was just him that came up with it but now I want them to give Ray a plausible reason for him not believing Gozer was coming back. Just to give some credibility. He still believed just not that...but why?

Does he say why in phone call? I can’t remember everything he said now.
No, he just puts on a silly voice making fun of Egon.

There is no other reason than the script requiring Egon to be alone + Rian Johnson / lightsaber / throw over shoulder.

Just something to shock the audience without needing to spend any writing time or creative energy thinking about it.

Like showing Winston take a piss and a dump on Ecto-1 but slightly less extreme.

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